Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru Vahe jio !
Guru Sahib works in absolutely mysterious ways !

Just yesterday at the weekly Gurbani veechar session (Sunday 11am; for those in bangalore) at the gurdwara we had a long discussion about reincarnation and what are it effects on our understanding of sikhi.

And today morning I got this presentation email from a Gursikh piyara, affirming our discussions with the message from Guru Granth Sahib.

Its absolutlely cear & beautiful. Thanks Baldev singh ji.

you can download this presentation from here.


Anonymous said…
i reckon you are quite off the message here vrji...

EEha Khaat Chalo Har Laha, AAge Basan Suhela

This one tuk clearly shows that we need to reap the benefits of this manukha janam and become one with Waheguru ji.

Additionally, theres the churasi lakh joon that are referred to heaps of times in gurbani.

lakh chouraaseeh maedhanee sabh saev kara(n)dhaa ||

fateh piyario!
Anonymous said…
Says Nanak, listen, O mind, to the True Teachings.

Let's clear our mind of any previous teachings we have taken from some xyz source and listen to what Guru Nanak Dev jee says:

Waheguru je ka khalsa||
Waheguru je kee fateh||
Anonymous said…
As a part of what I feel is an organized attack on fundamental Sikh principles, you've shown the next step. Reincarnation is now being questioned.

What's next? God? Let me guess, God is just a reference to our spirit which is all powerful.

This is naastik thought. Anyone who has reflected on bani or read Guru Granth Sahib will tell you that reincarnation is a fact that can't be disputed.

What do you suggest in the alternative? One coming and one going? That creates so many more problems. What about the infant who dies an instant after childbirth? What was the purpose of its life? Where will it go?

With all due respect I think you need to step back from this naastik thinking and realise what's going on before it's too late.
Anonymous said…
I'm also amazed at how young Sikhs like yourself are taken in by this naastik "scientific" jargon. Since Guru Sahib's time, hundreds of Gursikhs have come and NONE of them discounted reincarnation. But we have some new enlightened KalaAfghana-ists who have the real understanding of Sikhi. Does this make any sense to you? Are you the first ones to truly understand these things and all Gursikhs in the past who have firmly believed in things like reincarnation have been misguided and deluded?
Niyara Khalsa said…
veerji ,lets discuss the topic with sehej-lets not jump to conclusions.(because guru shaihb has said we will only gain copleteness when we have "truth""santokh"& "veechar" on our side .)

What baldev singh has put on the presentation is one side of the coin & what our sadhs preach is the other .

I have been deeply affected by this whole controversy, Give me time , I am currently searching all the guru shabads related to this topic to reach a conclusion.

till now, What we (the sangat around me - AKJ) have come to the conclusion is that , it is not important what happens after death & no one knows it either. The primal & only important thing is the value of this life and the use we make of it.

p.s. about: Says Nanak, listen, O mind, to the True Teachings.... the true teaching is about our actions being very critical & our life being a god gift . The teaching is not about what is the mechanism of rebirth - if it had been so then bani would become self contradictory. Because sometimes guru says , it is rab inside us only who doing the lekha all the time...
Page 1291
aapae puttee kulum aap oupar laekh bh thoon
eaeko keheeai naanukaa dhoojaa kaahae koo

sometimes , jamdoots are mentioned , somtimes jamraj is mentioned . DO you think seriously , that guru sahib despite knowing the truth kept giving diffrent accounts all the time...(this is what those NIRANKARIS aslo said , that Guru Sahib is full of Contradictions .... If I follow this path of just taking litral meanings to be true for every sentence - especially when taken out of the context of whole message of Guru sahib.).. mere allusion to a concept of azraeel or jamdoot by guru sahib .. doesnt make it his stamp of authenticity.

p.s.2. When Guru nanak is with us how can we be nastik ? lets not be scared to discuss. Our dealing is with Guru parmeshwar ...not with jamdoots & farishtas etc.

(My pesonal thought : this fake and lechorous sant tola .. is sucking the blod out us , just on the basis of hindu mythological storis of purab janam & vardan & Sharp etc... If we can come to a conclusion on this topic .and the gurus word is spread , this "tola"can be uprooted. )
jaskeerats said…
"it is not important what happens after death & no one knows it either. The primal & only important thing is the value of this life and the use we make of it."

I go with niyara kahalsa when he say's the above... we keep on fighting upon next or previous lives, hearing stories and imagining ourselves in those ilusionary worlds that we forget the current state, the reason why Waheguru ji has bestowed us with this life, the promises that we made before we were born.
I do believe in reincarnation, but I don't give a damn!! If my old karamas are bad & I have to face pain, then let be it, I should feel it sweet in his Bhana, and that's what my Guru says.
"Jeo bhave teo rakh har prabh karea, Kate gano asankh aavgun marea"
So insted of debating on weather ther is reincarnation or not, we should pray to Guru jee, to give us his sangath's shelter.

However one thing that i did not appretiate is when niyara khalsa said "just on the basis of hindu mythological storis of purab janam & vardan & Sharp etc... "
Veerji when you've decided that it is not important what happens after death & no one knows it either, its wrong if you again start making decisions, make this statement, this is not hindu mythology, this is for real:

kaethiaa kae baap kaethiaa kae baettae kaethae gur chaelae hooeae ||
They become the fathers of many, and the sons of many; they become the gurus of many, and the disciples.

aagai paashhai ganath n aavai kiaa jaathee kiaa hun hooeae ||
No account can be made of the future or the past; who knows what shall be, or what was?
-SGGS ang 1238

According to my small mat, I will be a wrong if I say there is nothing like reincarnatio, and I will still be wrong if I start caring about what will happen to me, or what was I before. We should take every thing as Guru sahib ji's bhana and be bae-parvah.

Bhul chuk maaf karo
Waheguru jee ka khalsa||
Waheguru jee kee fateh||
Anonymous said…
I would suggest your AKJ friends havent' read Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee's "Anditthi Duniya" book. While you are free to believe whatever you want and read Kala Afghana to your heart's content, please give Bhai Sahib's books a try as well.

If you interpret bani literally, there are no real contradictions. The tuk you provided is not about lekhaa of our deeds at all. I suggest you do some deeper study of this issue.

Reincarnation is a fundamental tenet of the Sikh faith which appears so many times. It is in fact the only sensible system.

You haven't answered my question about what possibly could be the alternative? Just coming once ? That is not viable nor is it sensible. People that say they don't care about reincarnation are fine in their own place, but what do we believe about the afterlife? What if someone doesn't get jot vigaas in this life, then what? Where does he go? Heaven? Hell? No where?

The Sant tola is exploiting innocent Sikhs but does that mean anything they believe we by default cannot believe? If they say wearing kakaars is necessary should we reject kakaars too?

What shocks me in general is the audacity of people who come up with these new theories. Do they really think all Sikhs in the past were mistaken and were deluded? These new age Kala Afghanists who reject all of Dasam Bani including Jaap Sahib are the first ones to know the truth and everyone before them were confused. Anyone with any Gursikhi spirit in them recognises their lies for what they are and knows such people are going down a doomed path.
Anonymous said…
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,Waheguru Ji KI Fateh,
How you are going to interpret these shabads :-
1) bahuth janam bishhurae thhae maadhho eihu janam thumhaarae laekhae || Ang- 694(Raag Dhannasree)

2) janam janam kaa vishhurriaa miliaa || Ang- 102(Raag- Maajh)

3) aavan jaan n sujhee bheerree galee fehee || Ang- 953(Raag- Raamkalee)

I agree with this point of yours

"it is not important what happens after death & no one knows it either. The primal & only important thing is the value of this life and the use we make of it."

and Guru Sahib also says:-
bhee paraapath maanukh dhaehureeaa ||
gobi(n)dh milan kee eih thaeree bareeaa || Ang- 12
Niyara Khalsa said…
(dont take this as my support of Baldev singh or of 84lackh ...because I am in neither party - and my being in either makes no diff anyways!)
Veerjio what my point here is we dont ned to attach the 84lack ideology to understand these shabads . What guru sahib points out again & again in the bani is - when we forget the gurus bani (teaching/shabad) we die & when are with guru/bani/shabad we live ! (most of us keep on jumping from one state to the other)..

Look how beautifully guru sahib explains it here :
Page 477
feel rubaabee buludh pukhaavuj kooaa thaal bujaavai
pehir cholunaa gudhehaa naachai bhaisaa bhugath kuraavai
raajaa raam kukureeaa burae pukaaeae
kinai boojhunehaarai khaaeae
baith singh ghar paan lugaavai ghees gulourae liaavai
ghar ghar musuree mungul gaavehi kushooaa sunkh bujaavai
buns ko pooth beeaahun chaliaa sueinae munddup shaaeae
roop kunniaa sundhar baedhee susai singh gun gaaeae
kehuth kubeer sunuhu rae sunthuhu keettee purubuth khaaeiaa
kushooaa kehai angaar bh loro lookee subudh sunaaeiaa

Dont get angry ,
but , If you everthing than why discuss?
But if you have honesty at heart , and owe allegiance only to Guru Granth Sahib then listen to this viakhya of the above shabad by Gurcharn singh "thailand wale". I promise you you will never forget this shabad again in ur life after that ! He is neither pro or for reincarnation - because its not the subject of sikhi: Raja Raam

Moreover the lines you have pasted in the previous comment are just one one lines from various shabads , most of them are not dealing with the topic of rebirth /84 its jut a idoimatic phraze that guru sahib has used. If we really want to delve into the topic then the shabads should be those that are specifically dealing with the topic of death and birth etc. e.g.
Page 885
raamukulee mehulaa 5
puvunai mehi puvun sumaaeiaa
jothee mehi joth ral jaaeiaa
maattee maattee hoee eaek
rovunehaarae kee kuvun ttaek
koun mooaa rae koun mooaa
brehum giaanee mil kuruhu beechaaraa eihu tho chuluth bhaeiaa
agulee kish khubar n paaee
rovunehaar bh ooth sidhaaee

bhurum moh kae baadhae bundh
supun bhaeiaa bhukhulaaeae andh
eihu tho ruchun rachiaa kuruthaar
aavuth jaavuth hukam apaar
neh ko mooaa n murunai jog

neh binusai abinaasee hog
jo eihu jaanuhu so eihu naahi
jaanunehaarae ko bal jaao
kuhu naanuk gur bhurum chukaaeiaa
naa koee murai n aavai jaaeiaa

Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:
The wind merges into the wind.
The light blends into the light.
The dust becomes one with the dust.
What support is there for the one who is lamenting? ||1||
Who has died? O, who has died?
O God-realized beings, meet together and consider this. What a wondrous thing has happened! ||1||Pause||
No one knows what happens after death.
The one who is lamenting will also arise and depart.

Mortal beings are bound by the bonds of doubt and attachment.
When life becomes a dream, the blind man babbles and grieves in vain. ||2||
The Creator Lord created this creation.
It comes and goes, subject to the Will of the Infinite Lord.
No one dies; no one is capable of dying.
The god residing in us does not perish; he is imperishable. ||3||

The one who knows, does not !
I am a sacrifice to the one who knows this.
Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt.
No one dies; no one comes or goes. ||4||10||

In this shabad guru sahib clearly mentions his standpoint , that it is not about after life or before life etc... God is there everywhere he in in hour hearts we we are live and when we become dust he is still there in it ! We need to realize him , near us ..nearer than the nearrest ! Waheguru ! bless us that we realize ur commands ! wah wah !"so prubh naerai hoon thae naerai"
Anonymous said…
Page 648
First Mehl:

eik dhujhehi eik dhubeeahi eikunaa kuthae khaahi
eik paanee vich ousutteeahi eik bhee fir husan paahi
naanuk eaev n jaapee kithai jaae sumaahi

First Mehl:
Some are cremated, and some are buried; some are eaten by dogs.
Some are thrown into water, while others are thrown into wells.
O Nanak, it is not known, where they go and into what they merge. ||2||

When Guru Nanak is not making any claims , how Dare we ?

our Nanak said do good in whatever u r doing , don't worry about death.

Those who are making claims on both sides are wrong . Take refuge in the group of "Hari" !
Anonymous said…
Excellent Bush League Bani quotation without even an OUNCE of reflection.

First Mehl:
Some are cremated, and some are buried; some are eaten by dogs.
Some are thrown into water, while others are thrown into wells.
O Nanak, it is not known, where they go and into what they merge. ||2||

Some are cremated, buried, eaten by dogs, thrown into water or wells. Guru Sahib is saying that no one knows what will happen to their bodies after death.

Only a fool would try to say Guru Sahib has not clearly said reincarnation is a reality.
Niyara Khalsa said…
Request to every one , please use your name (or pseudo-name) when writing comments , otherwise it is difficult to know which anonymous is talking what ?
Dont be scared people wont eat U!!

(they havent eaten or beaten me till now , even though I keep creating such a ruckus all the time !! )
Niyara Khalsa said…
Another perspective to Reincarnation

( by Charan Singh Toronto Canada )

Gurbani guides us that the creator has told us how we come to this
world but has not revealed where we go after death.

So awareness of life and death provides us with an understanding of "Joon" or what is life and what is death,

Now, how we get this awarness?
through the breath "Sah"
Gurbani guides us to use each and every breath Saas Saas Simroo Gobind...
Which brings us to a state of Now !!!

with each breath without thinking about the next breath ...
Mat Kay Japay Sah aa-way Kay na aaway Raam...

Another dimesion to the "Jooni" is then the sas (The awarness)and manua
( where that awarness is processed)

Taking of each breath seems like a "jun" where the for the time we are
not connected with the “Gur” :
Bin gur manua na tikai fir fir juni pa-aye

So fir fir juni at micro or lowest level is the repeated "sas" with out the Guru

No need to discuss reincarnation, No interpretation of life after. Even when Guru saab
says Kayee Janam Bhayay Keet Patanga it is just descritpive of Janam
or saas or awarness (manua’s state of being) as a keet or patanga or animal or creation

Now is the time to connect with the Guru if not then many comparisons
with various creations sarap or cooker etc
These seem Guru Saab has made these behavioural comparisons to make us
understand rather than endoresement to reincarnation.

For example:
Ik Garhi na Miltay Ta Kaljug hota..
is just big comparison if we can understand it here we should also be able to see itin the case of jooni’s

Similarly reincarnation not next life but Now each Savaas is a "Jun"

Now is the time to connect with the Guru.

Sangat may please pardon mistakes in Gurbani Understanding, usage,
typing etc.and bless ( Bhul chuk de Mafi) and guide for better
understanding of these evolving thoughts