About doing Darshan of Guru Nanak Patshah's "Deh"

One Veerji has commented (with regards to the dohira post )
"I think its right not to treat Guru Granth Sahibs Saroop as an idol and start doing everything that Hindus do for their idols.

But having said that,I have read about Baba Nand Singhs reverence for Guru Sahibs Saroop.He treated Guru Sahibs Saroop as pargat Guran ki deh and even got darshan of Guru Nanak Dev ji in flesh and blood from it.From this I think its not wrong to treat Guru Sahibs Saroop as Pargat Guran ki Deh."

befor we move forward first let us remember :
ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
bhulan andar sabh ko abhul guroo kartaar.

now , about Nand Singh ji doing Guru Shibs darshan , please see what Guru Granth sahib says about the "Human Body":

ਜਾ ਭਜੈ ਤਾ ਠੀਕਰੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾੜਤ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ, ਪਤਿ ਵਿਣੁ
ਪਾਰਿ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥1॥
ਅਰਥ :-ਜਦੋਂ (ਇਹ ਸਰੀਰ-ਰੂਪ ਭਾਂਡਾ) ਟੁੱਟ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ (ਇਹ ਤਾਂ) ਠੀਕਰਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਕਿਸੇ ਕੰਮ ਦਾ
ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿ ਜਾਂਦਾ) ਤੇ ਮੁੜ ਇਹ (ਸਰੀਰਕ) ਬਣਤਰ ਬਣ ਭੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦੀ । ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਅੰਨ੍ਹਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ)
ਗੁਰੂ (ਦੀ ਸਰਨ) ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਂਜਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ (ਇਸ ਔਝੜ
ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਪਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੰਘ ਸਕਦਾ ।1।

This shabad is on ang 138 . Guru Shaib does not lie , he does not make one rule for the whole universe and one for himself. So Guru shib makes it clear that all this story about guru shib giving bodily darshan is either made up by an over zealous follower of Nand Singh ji or is a Hoax to make guru shib a part of hindu fairy tales where guru shib comes and gives darshan like Devtas (shiv etc) to give them vardan.

Moreover , In gurmat there is absolutely ZERO relevance of "deh" and complete and total reverence of "jyot" i.e. "Gyan & Guna" .
which can be seen from the following Gur shabads and sakhis :

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ 3 ॥ ਕਾਇਆ ਹੰਸ ਕਿਆ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹੈ ਜਿ ਪਇਆ ਹੀ ਛਡਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਏਸ ਨੋ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਿ
ਖਵਾਲੀਐ ਜਿ ਚਲਦਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਾਇਆ ਮਿਟੀ ਅੰਧੁ ਹੈ ਪਉਣੈ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਹਉ ਤਾ
ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਆਵਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਤੋ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਜਿ ਰਹਾ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇ

ਸਿਰੀ ਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ 1 ॥ ਸੁਣਿ ਮਨ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ, ਮਿਲੁ, ਵੇਲਾ ਹੈ ਏਹੁ ॥ ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਜੋਬਨਿ ਸਾਸੁ ਹੈ
ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਹ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਣ ਕਾਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਢਹਿ ਢੇਰੀ ਤਨੁ ਖੇਹੁ ॥1॥

ਅਰਥ :-ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ (ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰ) ਨਾਹ ਵਸਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਸਰੀਰ ਕਿਸ ਕੰਮ?ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਆਖ਼ਰ ਢਹਿ ਕੇ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਦੀ ਢੇਰੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਇਗਾ ।1।

popular Sakhi : We are all told the sakhi that when Guru Nanak got old , one day he started acting like a mad man and started hitting everyone ( it is said that even bhai Budha Ji ) ran away and hid. Only Bhai Lehna Ji remained. The next day when guru sahib started acting normally , everyone came back. Moral of the incicent that Guru sahib taught everyone by this acting is that , it his Gunas and Gyan (jyot) that are the guru and this body is of no relevance. When they saw that there are no gunas left in that body and the guru was acting like mad they left and came back only whe they saw the same gyan & gunas . Hence , everyone understood .Then when Guru sahib gave the siri sahib to Guru Angad and made him the Guru no one needed to be explained.

Now the question will arize that all the seva at Gurdwaras , is it wrong ? what about all the chawar ,chatter & takhat ? Are we doing deh pooja by doing that ? Well the answer is that we should know why all that is done othet it will end up as moorti pooja :

why we have the big chattar (chandowa or Canopy ) , Chawar & Takhat (throne) for the guru sahib. And why Guru sahib travels with such honour.

It is not because we concider the Guru Granth Sahib as a human being. And he goes to sleep at night. etc. etc.

It is because since the time of the 6th Guru ( Guru Hargobind , Sache Patshah) the Guru has taken control of Miri & Piri both. So the Guru has also become the King and with the King comes the Throne , the Decorated Chatter & the Chaur sahib. And whenever the King travels , it is with Pomp and Show.

But we should make it our point to understand the Guru has now completely become " Bani roop " , he is no longer available to us in the Human Form . His human form has passed over to the Khalsa. We should not be expecting the guru to be perorming Magic and turning into a body !

Moreoevr Guru Sahib himself condems moorti pooja , we as sikhs would be wrong if we indulge in similar moorti pooja of Guru Granth Sahib. All the regalia and the ceremony around Guru Sahib is because Guru Shib is the King of this world and the Next.

I think in our " Shradha " we completely forget gurmat sometimes and start copying hindoos and believing in their concepts. I hope It is clear by now that it is not " hindoo mandir worship " that is the cause of the cerimonies at the "Gurdwara ".


Veer Ji,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

You said-

"story about guru shib giving bodily darshan is either made up by an over zealous follower of Nand Singh ji or is a Hoax"

It is neither of the two as Baba Nand Singh Ji got Guru Ji's darshan in Deh Saroop not only once but innumerable times.
Please take into consideration that Prema Bhakti is of utmost value as per Gurmat. As per Gurbani -

"Gobind Bhao Bhagat Ka Bkookha"

Guru Gobind Singh ji have also stressed on this aspect(Prem Bhakti) in Tav Prasad Sawaiye-

"Saach Kahon Sun leho sabhay, Jin Prem Kio tim hi prabh paayo"

There have been many instances in Gurbani on how various Bhagats got
Waheguru's Darshan in Deh Saroop.

No doubt Guru Nanak Dev Ji cleared to us that we have to follow "Shabad Guru" but in whatever form you love Guru unquestioningly and uncritically, Guru will be there with you.

It is all matter of loving the Guru.

Bhul Chuk Maff.

Trying to be a Sikh
Harminder Singh said…
wahwguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ki fateh

I have very limited knowledge and expereince and am in no position to say anything authoritatively.

I think you have not heard or read much about Baba nand Singh Ji. He was of the likes of Sant Attar Singh Ji Mastuana. And his prem for Guru Sahib and his beleief to get Darshan of Guru Sahib in "Deh Saroop" from it got fulfilled.Please note that its not that all his Bhakti was just to get darshan of Guru Sahib in Deh Saroop , he followed Shabad Guru and followed every single Gurmat principle with utmost love and devotion.

About Guru ji giving Darshan in deh Saroop it didnt just happen to Baba Nand Singh Ji. If you know Langar Sahib Gurudwara of "Baba Nidhan Singh Ji" in Hazoor Sahib you will know that Dasam Patshah gave darshan to this singh in Deh Saroop and told him "Khisa tera Hath Mera" and thats how the trdition of 24 hour Langar started there and there was never any shortage of Langar there since that time.Apart from him Sant Harnaam Singh from Rampur Khera got darshan of Guru Sahiban in Deh Saroop. Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh ji got Darshan of Guru sahib too.You can find it in "Jail Chittian" . He also got Partakh darshan of Gurmantar "waheguru" .

No doubt our Guru is "Jyot" or "Shabad" .This jyot travelled through 10 Guru Sahibans and now resides in Shabad form in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and our sole motive should not be to get darsahan of Guru Sahib in Deh,but in his Will Guru Sahib can still give Darshan to his Bhagats in Deh Saroop.And he did so from Guru Granth Sahibs Saroop to Baba Nand Singh ji.

There are many quotes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which say that the body will vanish and there is no use associating to body but didnt Guru Sahibs reached far off places ,just by realising that some bhagat of theirs is remembering them with such a great love, to give Darshan to them?
I think those quotes are for us to relaise the futility of our body and to make us understand that we shouldnt attach ourselves to bodies.

Once again I am just talking out of my bookish knowledge .

waheguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ki fateh
Harminder Singh said…
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

I just wanted to add to my previous comment that somethings in Gurmat or Sikhi might resemble Hindu traditions but it doesnt mean that it is same or it has no place in sikhism.

I think there is thin line between certain such principles and being totally overtaken by brahminism. We have to tread carefully.But love and faith on Guru Sahib only will make that possible.
Sifar said…
Veer Niyare Khalsa jeeoo...

WaheGuru jee Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru jee Kee Fatehe...

No offense, but in your own words you have proved that His Holiness, Dhan Dhan Shri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj is "Pragat Guran Kee Deh", when you say "This shabad is on ang 138". Ang is refered to as a part of the body (Deh) only, and not for pages....

Bhul Chuk De Khema....

PS..Scholars for 9/11 Truth
Anonymous said…
I also agree you don't have any knowledge about Baba Nand Singh.
I would suggest you read up on his jeevan. He used to stay imbubed in naam for months at a tie without eating or sleeping.

Do you really think you know what you talking about?

I do agree though that "deh" is not what we adore in our worship, it is shabad. But his adoration was to see Satguru in his deh form, so that is what he got. It is not easy to even get that. Some want to see "Nirgun" saroop and they get that. It is all about the adoration of the bhagat, Satguru blesses the bhagat with what they want.
Niyara Khalsa said…
anonymous ji
You say that Bhai sahib nand Singh ji "stay imbubed in naam for months at a tie without eating or sleeping."
( I dont intend to point any fingers at nand Singh ji , i only want to ask myself & yourself questions from Gurbani :)
during those months / days /life:
Did he have a grehisti ?
Did he earn a living with his hands ?
Does the Guru (eternal guru Granth Sahib) at any place say that shun everything and cut off ?

P.s. Guru Taeg bahadurs 26 years on hargobindpur (bakala) are described as similar "tap" by people . It is the people who are creating misinterpretations.

guru Taeg Bahadur ji stayed at Sri hargobindpur and was the owner of the property won after the battle he had participated under Guru Hargobind Sahib ji.
Here he lived in Grehisti life with his Wife ( mata Gujri) . But this is true he never engaged himself into active politic and social work , and remaind in a mood of constant detached love.
Never did any Nanak survive of alms by the sangat . They led us by example .
Anonymous said…
Very Interesting the points you have raised. Have you ever experienced masti of Naam - it does not seem so. That is what he had Masti or Khumaree or Rang of Naam. He became so lost in it that so much time would pass and he would not know where the time went. Similarly it is wriiten that Sant Attar Singh Mastuana had the same thing and would remain imbued for dayd and months with out speaking to anyone. Most Mahapurkhs have gone through it.

What job did Baba Budhaa Jee do? He never got married, he was mast in Naam and became a Brahm Giani.

You haven't adhered to my advice and read up on his life. Yes he did use to work and then eat out of that. He never begged, and only asked the Guru that he is lost in his love and if he so wills to send food otherwise he will not eat. He used to pass days without food coming but he would never worry about it.

It is a different stage than we are at. Lets leave it at that.
Niyara Khalsa said…
I think it is futile to have a discussion when we are not ready to accept Guru Granth Sahib jee as our guru and the eternal truth.

It can be only one way : either Guru sahib is right or the "popilar" sants (whose lives are attached to stories that contradict Guru Granth Sahib ) are right.

we all know what is truth . It is up to us to accept it nowt or latter.

Nobody , be it the most popular sant or jathedar , whose activities contradict what guru Granth sahib teaches should be used as a role model.
Jagjinder said…
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Request to all,

The discussion seems more of a debate rather than a discussion. Let us please try to calm down our emotions and then try to think what seem right according to Gurmat.

This is just my opinion, I can definitely be wrong, and somebody can correct me, I would appreciate it.

First of all, Pragat Guraan ki Deh, do we actually mean what is meant by that? Why did Guru Gobind Singh use the word "pragat"? He could have used the eternal nirankar Guru ki deh as well? This means that he is referring the body of Guru Granth Sahib to be treated as the way Sikh Sangat used to treat the body of the pragat Gurus, the Gurus who came in the form of flesh and body. Since "Deh" word is being used, something physical seen to the eyes should be considered. If we want to treat Guru Granth Sahib as guraan ki deh, in my humble opinion, we should pay the same respect, as we did to human Gurus, same King-size Chandowa, Chaur, Takht etc. Since Rumala is being used to cover the body of Guru, similarly it is changed everyday just the way we change clothes everyday. But the point is, we should not just limit ourselves doing sewa of Physical Guru Granth Sahib, and not having any idea about "Aayi Panthi Sagal Jamaatee" or "Sagal Sang humko ban ayi"?

Also, I would like to correct Veer NiyaraKhalsa for not using words like Sant or Baba, commonly used for the profiles mentioned. It does not take anything from you, if you apply Baba or Sant as a prefix to their names! :-)
Baba always meant somebody old or wise, so if we use Nand Singh ji, instead of Baba Nand Singh ji, it is showing a bit of disrespect and a little show of "haume" inside. Even Guru Sahib used the word Bhai alot, atleast you could use Bhai Nand Singh ji, if Baba doesnt seem approproate to you.

It is definite that "Maanukh ki tek birthi sab jaan", which means that if we try to attach ourselves with something or somebody physical, ultimately we and the physical thing is going to expire.

Anyway, I have grown into a family where going to Gurudwara Nanaksar (Delhi) was considered very good, and I used to visit the Gurudwara very much. The respect and sewa for Guru Granth Sahib in the Gurudwara is tremendous, but somethings I didnt like, not getting married, when nearly every Behangam (tyagi Sikh) craved for marriage (for obvious reasons) or leaving Nanaksar after sometime, like when going abroad or when getting all training in Sangeet. I was in contact with these behangams, as they all were young between 16-26yrs, and were my friends. This made me feel bad, as they are not thinking what they should when they are in bana. Earlier my mind was setup like no "behangam " was allowed to get married, and I felt disgusted for those guys who ran away from Gurudwara. Upon thinking and research done as I grew, I found that, the Saint there, has asked the behangams not to get married, but if they want to get married, they can marry but then they can only be treated as a normal grehsati. And they will not be treated as they are being treated now. Ofcourse, you can raise the Tyagi Yogis kind of question, but still.. Baba Nand Singh never got married, but as you say, in Sikhi, it is told that one should not run from family life to attain salvation, and I think he never ran from family, he just never treated it important enough, may be a state of a Sikh? I dont know. Upon research I also found, that Baba Nand Singh served Indian Army for sometime, and then upon getting enough salary to get a ticket to Nanded, he left the Army. After reaching there, he did sewa in Nanded for 2-3 yrs ( i read in some book), and then Baba Monee ji (:-)from Hajoor Sahib gave him the script of doing "Sampat" paath. He then used to do Guru Granth Sahib's paath and used to complete in 1 yr, and then after bhog of paath, he used to destroy the jhuggi, where he lived, and toured for some other place. However, we may find non-relevant pieces in the story above, like touring from place to place in search of salvation, not getting married, not doing jobs etc, but at the same time we miss the important things like bhog of paath in 1yr, and then destroying the jhuggi? which meant that he was quite informative that the place should not be loved or where Guru Sahib's paath was done, only that place does not becomes spiritual...

Now coming to Baba Nand Singh ji getting darshan of Guru Nanak. I have also read this story, which seemed not more than a Saakhi (Sikhiya - a story telling morals), that if we start feeling Guru Nanak or Guru in every bit of this world, we feel see every piece as Guru Nanak himself, and just saying that He asked Guru Nanak to come out of Guru Granth Sahib seemed a bit hypothetical. Baba Nand Singh ji was a brahmgyani, and he could not have "asked" the Lord of Universe to come in physical form just to please his eyes! When one becomes Brahmgyani, all desires vanish, and they see every thing as Nirankar or Guru Nanak or Shabad Guru, you name it. No offences meant, really, I cannot even think nor desire to match those attained souls, still I am trying to say, the message even Baba Nand Singh ji wanted to convey was interpreted incorrectly! As per a veer, he says, Baba Nand Singh ji had innumerable times darshan of Guru Nanak. Veerji, to correct you, it is just like, Namdev ji getting darshan of Ram or Krishan some 52 times (only?), whatever desire a human mind may have, but if we are finally getting a darshan, then the Guru never departs us, He will always remain in front of us, so Baba Nand Singh ji would be getting continous "darshan" of Guru Nanak. In our childhood, there used to be a programme called "Krishi Darshan", which was getting knowledge about agriculture, but they never showed a Krishi's darshan. Hence we should treat Darshan as the knowledge attained from the Guru, which will be used as Guru's darshan...

I think, all the saints till now, who have come into picture (lot of them are there, we just couldnt find them!), they have attained the brahm-gyan by the simran and love with Waheguru, which would mean continuous remembrance and love with Waheguru, by virtue of which, they were able to see what we cannot - Guru's omnipresence!

Regarding masti of naam, yes that is true as well. See it all depends upon the state of the mind, and the state to which it wants to accept. Right now, we all are literate Parrots, who have lot of contradictory literature for each other, and we all can attack each other better. This is known to us that Yogis can live without water and food for a long period of time, which they call as Sidhis or whatever. But these so-called powers come "automatically" :-) when you crave for Naam. Sometime, when we are after something, like solving a problem in a program, we dont realise how much time has passed as we are so imbued in it, similarly watching an interesting movie also places similar effect on us. Hence, we cannot say that these saints could not live without food and water. Ofcourse the forced pressure on body is condemned in Gurbani, but there might be some states which we could not think of?

I guess the maximum damage to our panth has been done by the mis-interpreted Saakhis, be it Guru Nanaks' makka ghumana, Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's 27yrs tap or Baba Nand Singh ji's having darshan of Guru Nanak from Guru Granth Sahib, every sakhi was made up to tell us something, which the followers interpreted and screwed in such way that all these seem no less than mythological stories!

Bhul chuk di khima!
Jagjinder Singh